THE THOUGHTFUL ENTREPRENEUR PODCAST
Have you ever wondered what makes an excellent copy? How can you create copy that captures attention and converts into sales?
Konrad shares how his agency blends data-driven content strategy and psychology with creative copywriting to help big brands like TikTok, Adidas, and Mercedes-Benz sell more. But, their bread and butter are helping startups and scale-ups grow predictable revenue using the power of words.
So, what's the secret of effective copywriting? According to Konrad, it's all about avoiding cliches, keeping the balance right, and using a human, conversational tone. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on benefits rather than features and using data to inform copywriting decisions.
But perhaps the most crucial aspect of effective copywriting is understanding your audience. Konrad explains his agency's approach of conducting buyer interviews and gathering insights to understand the audience's pain points, desires, objections, and buying journey. He emphasizes the importance of using the audience's language in copywriting to increase conversion rates.
About Konrad Sanders:
Konrad is the dynamic leader of The Creative Copywriter, a rapidly expanding content strategy and copywriting agency. He and his skilled team combine creativity with strategic insights to craft compelling content that boosts sales.
They have successfully collaborated with global brands like Adidas, TikTok, and Thomson Reuters. Konrad aims to eliminate corporate monotony, using ‘real talk,' ‘word science,' and creative calculations to help brands stand out in crowded markets.
About The Creative Copywriter:
The Creative Copywriter (TCC) is a fast-growing copywriting and content strategy agency that merges creativity and strategic science. Operating globally, TCC assists significant brands such as Adidas, Hyundai, and Tik Tok in creating compelling, high-converting content.
The agency, headed by CEO Konrad Sanders and MD Nitzan Regev-Sanders, applies innovative methodologies like “The 13 Lenses” to analyze and refine copy. This tool effectively answers the question, “Is this copy powerful enough?”. With this blend of artistic flair and scientific analysis, TCC helps brands strengthen their identity and impact at every stage of the marketing funnel.
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Links Mentioned in this Episode:
Want to learn more? Check out The Creative Copywriter website at
Check out The Creative Copywriter on LinkedIn at
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Check out Konrad Sanders on LinkedIn at
Check out Konrad Sanders on Twitter at
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Josh (00:00:05) - Hey, their thoughtful listener, would you like consistent and predictable sales activity with no spam and no ads? I'll teach you step by step how to do this, particularly if you're an agency owner, consultant coach, or B2B service provider. What I teach has worked for me for more than 15 years and has helped me create more than 10 million in revenue. Just head to up my influence.com and watch my free class on how to create endless high ticket sales appointments. You can even chat with me live, and I'll see and reply to your messages. Also, don't forget, the Thoughtful Entrepreneur is always looking for guests. Go to up my influence.com and click on podcast. We'd love to have you with us right now. KonradSanders, Conrad, you are the founder and c e o of the creative copywriter you're found on the firstname.lastname@example.org. Conrad, thank you so much for joining us.
Konrad (00:01:11) - Thanks for having me, Josh. I'm, I'm happy to be representing the Brits today on your podcast.
Josh (00:01:17) - Well, we, the Brits come very well represented on this show. I'd, I'd say, I think we've got at least one a week, am I, if I'm guessing correctly. So happy to have you and I should point out, uh, that this is something you've been doing for quite a while, you've been a copywriter, and then of course, you know, the creative copywriter has been around, well, for over 13 years, so congratulations on your longevity in the space.
Konrad (00:01:44) - Thank you. I've, I've stuck with it. I've got quite a, quite an interesting story. I'm sure I'll, I'll share some of it with you today.
Josh (00:01:51) - Yeah. And you've also, you've worked with some pretty substantial clients. Do, do you mind doing, let's, let's do a little name dropping, just, you know, kind of before we get into it just so folks understand your, um, you know, kind of your position and, you know, and who has historically trusted you for, for this sort of work.
Konrad (00:02:09) - Sure. Shall I give you the quick spiel? Yeah. I'll tell you what we do as an agency. We love quick
Josh (00:02:13) - Spiels. Yes, ,
Konrad (00:02:14) - Quick Spiels. So what we do as an agency is we blend the science of data-driven content, strategy and psychology with the art of creative copywriting, basically to help brands get their words right at every step of the customer journey, um, and sell more stuff essentially. Um, so in terms of name dropping, yeah, we work with some quite big sexy brands like TikTok, Adidas, Mercedes-Benz, Panasonic, Thompson, Reuters, recently ACOM as well. Um, so lots of kind of global brands, but our bread and butter is kind of helping startups and scale up, sort of grow predictable revenue and, and scale up and, and helping them on that journey using, you know, the power of words to, to do so.
Josh (00:03:01) - Yeah. Um, and do you mind sharing, like, uh, you know, what does a a company, you don't have to share specifics or whatever, but you know, a company like TikTok, what are their copywriting needs?
Konrad (00:03:13) - Well, TikTok actually came to us for a, a quite a, a fun project whereby they were looking, this was years ago, looking to, um, get more, get, get, get more open rates on some of their videos. So they were trying to like, promote, uh, certain videos to get them out there. And we were, we were essentially writing funny memes mm-hmm. , um, to go with these videos, to, to get people clicking essentially. So, you know, big brands like TikTok also want people tick, uh, clicking. They also want to, you know, at the time they, they were trying to target a slightly older demographic. Cause it started really with just teenagers. And so looking to kind of grow into a new space, new market, new audience, um, and grab the attention of, of, of prospects that hadn't heard about TikTok weren't using TikTok. So grab their attention, you know, get them clicking. Uh, so it's brand awareness, conversion, all the things that we usually do. And, and, you know, you need words for that. You need creative copy and in order to, you know, break through in the, the world is just saturated full of content saturation these days, you know, and everyone's wrestling for our attention, wrestling for eyeballs. So the more creative you can be of your copy, the more you can pierce through the noise, you know, the better you'll do the, the, the more you'll achieve your marketing and sales goals.
Josh (00:04:38) - Yeah. Um, and, and Konradtoday particularly, can you talk about maybe the importance or nuance of great copywriting today versus maybe what may have been, like you could get away with, say, 10 years ago? Um, what sensitivities do we need to have today? Um, just kind of given where consumer's brains are?
Konrad (00:05:06) - I think it's a really interesting question, first of all. So thanks for asking it, Josh. Um, I think that the, the interesting thing about copywriting is that a large largely, or a large part of it, um, hasn't changed, right? So you can look back at really great copy newspaper ads from a hundred years ago. Um, and, and, and much of the best practices still apply because, you know, the human brain hasn't really evolved since then, right? Mm-hmm. , it's, it's essential psychology emotions, the triggers, the things that, uh, push us to action, you know, social proof, the fact that we wanna be liked, the fact that we wanna, um, you know, we wanna take shortcuts to, to make purchasing decisions. All of these things are still pretty much the same. And so a lot of, of the characteristics and qualities and best practices of copy, literally from, you know, newspaper ads from a hundred years ago still applied today, today to the digital world.
Konrad (00:06:06) - But naturally, I think the context is changing a lot, you know, the context, platforms, algorithms, and over the last 10 years, um, I think that trends come and go. People become, things become maybe more saturated more quickly. Mm-hmm. , you know, uh, we, we, we've grown kind of more immune to certain messaging that perhaps were working 10, 15 years ago, you know, and, and things, one, one thing you always want to avoid with copy, with great copy is cliches. So cliches don't work, right? If you read like some, if you read something that you feel like you've read a million times before, your eyes will glaze over, it won't grab you. Right? And that's what you wanna do. It won't grab and grip your, your audience's attention. But the thing about a cliche is that there's a certain point whereby it's probably a nice, you know, common fun phrase.
Konrad (00:06:59) - Yeah. And then, right, there's a tip, a tipping point when it becomes overused. So naturally cliches will also come and go, right? Naturally, things that we've been saying in copy, I remember when I was, you know, starting out and, and learning the best practices of, of copy, you know, the word discover, for example, was a copywriting power word. There are a list of power words, and, and we were taught if you weave these into your copy, they'll work, right? Because they'll just, they're proven to work. But again, if everyone's been taught that and everyone's using it, right, and, you know, overusing it and not being creative and, and, and, and, and differentiating, then it becomes cliched. And, and it's just, it doesn't have the desired effect. So I think that a lot of the kind of power words and more like direct response copywriting from 10, 15 years ago is just not as powerful these days.
Konrad (00:07:54) - You know, you come across as like a car salesman and it's not what you wanna do, right? It's much more important to kind of use some of that psychology, right? Like social proof, sense of urgency, et cetera, in a more subtle way. And then balance it with all the other ingredients that are needed, such as getting the brand right, being, you know, zig zigging, world industry zags, having that creative spark, um, taking an outside in approach. So data led copy, like actually understanding what your customers want. Um, and I would, when answering this question, I, I, I probably have to refer to a framework I developed called the 13 Lenses, um, which are basically 13 different ingredients in the, the secret source of copy and content that does what you need it to do, which is, you know, convince, convert, compel, nurture, et cetera. Um, because I mentioned a few categories there, and there're actually lenses in our framework, the creative spark lens, the brand lens, um, the action lens. So it's about balance. I'd say these days, it's about getting the balance right, understanding these changing platforms and the context and the fact that, you know, algorithms change. You need to understand them. Um, social platforms change, how people use them, change. So you need to adapt. And also avoiding cliches and keeping your finger on the pulse of what is cliched and what does come across as just generic sales copy or generic content.
Josh (00:09:22) - Yeah. I, uh, , it's all, all, all, all copywriting works until it doesn't work, uh, or cliches work until they don't work. And, you know, it's kind of that, um, you know, paying attention to trends and, you know, sometimes I think it's easy to, uh, blame marketers for ruining everything, right? Because Oh, good idea. And then everyone bum rushes, uh, you know, to get in on that. But, uh, yeah, I tell you, and, and I think there was a point, and, and I think, um, you know, like pandemic related cliches, Ooh, if I see a pandemic related cliche today, it's like nails on a blackboard, . Yeah. Cuz some of that stuff got overused real too quick. And I'm not even a repeat. I think anyone listening to our conversation right now, you know what all those cliches are. Yeah. Don't do those.
Konrad (00:10:09) - It, it really did. And, uh, at the time we were kind of running these sessions on communicating in a crisis. Yeah. You know, helping our clients and offering out, you know, free workshops for other businesses. And yeah, that's something that we were helping people to, to swerve and avoid is, you know, just sa you know, sounding like a, a a walking, talking cliche. Um, and I, I'll tell you, I'll give you a tip, right? I'll give our, uh, your, your listeners a tip on, on how to avoid that. Um, we call it the real talk lens, and it's about being human, right? It might, it might seem obvious, but it often isn't, especially B2B marketers, like are so guilty of filling their, their content and copy full of jargon and cliches and just things they think they should be saying because it's professional. That, that, the litmus test is, do you talk like that at home, right?
Konrad (00:11:02) - Or do you talk like that at the pub? If not there, there might be a problem. Make it more human, make it more real, make it more conversational, right? Don't use these kind of overused words, jargon, cliches that are often quite meaningless, you know, in the B2B world, using the word solution for example, what does that really mean? Like, is there a better way to say what you actually mean in a more human real conversational way? Because in the end of the day, the reason why podcasts work well is because people love conversations that we, we are social creatures, so our brains are kind of hardwired to, to, to be engaged by conversation. Um, and and that's what you want your copy to, to be like. And, and again, back to old copywriting techniques, which did work back in the newspaper ad conversational copy worked back then, and it does now. Yeah.
Josh (00:11:54) - You know, obviously another one. Um, and, and this is, uh, actually your pinned tweet on Twitter is, you know, here's a copywriting tip, sell a good night's sleep, not the mattress. Can you share just a little bit about, cuz I think that that's one of the easiest, I would assume this is a lens what, what you're gonna be talking about, but this is one of the easiest lenses, I think, to look at our own copywriting. And are you talking about features or are you talking about, you know, the, the, the consumers, what their gap is, what they want, you know, what's in it for them? What's the result that they're after? But, uh, this one is so easy, I think, on your first drafts, you know, of like what you wanna say on a page. Okay. Fine. , it's like, can you talk a little bit about that?
Konrad (00:12:40) - Y Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's a great quote. I'm, I'm glad you've brought, brought it up. Um, it, it probably falls into two lenses in a way, but we've got one called the value lens. And it's exactly about that. It's about painting a picture of, you know, the value that you are truly gonna provide your, your audience. Um, so possibly one of the age old copyright techniques, as you mentioned, is, is benefits, not features or, or I say benefits and features, right? Marry them together. Whenever you're talking about a feature, why, why should they care? It's a great question to ask in marketing. Why should they give a crap? You know, why, what's the real reason why have you, you know, why have your products development team or s you know, or, or, or service development team included that feature? There's a reason for it. And, and ask yourself, what is that core end benefit?
Konrad (00:13:32) - How is it really gonna change the life of that target prospect or the, the life of, of their business? Um, and, and that's the value lens. Um, yeah, like you said, sell a good night's sleep, not the mattress. And I wanna add to throw an extra lens in there, because we're talking all about lenses. Um, one of our lenses is called the outside in lens. And this is all about taking a data led approach and not just basing your marketing content and copy on assumptions, which so many marketers, again, are guilty of, you know, I, I think I know will work. This, this campaign messaging, uh, even businesses have built on assumptions and they often fail. So what I'm trying to gear people towards our clients, and, and we've done it right from the offset from the way we built our agency, is gathering insights, understanding truly what your audience are looking for.
Konrad (00:14:21) - So basing your decisions on demand and data rather than assumptions. So by that, I mean, what we offer as an agency is surveying, right? And or buyer interviews with our, the customers for our clients. So talking to them, and in the B2B world, when it's high consideration decision, we would usually dive into these five areas of buying insight. So what are their triggers and pain points? What are their, um, desired benefits? That's number two. Number three, what are their perceived barriers? What are their objections? Why might they not want to buy or purchase your product or service? Number four is comparison factors. What are they using to compare your offering with other competitors on the market? And number five is the buyer's journey. So who and what do they trust during that buying cycle? And if you can gather that, that data, it's so, so powerful, right?
Konrad (00:15:12) - So we would do buyer interviews, understand, um, transcribe those interviews then, or pull out quotes and organize them according to those errors of buying insight. And then really cool thing, or at least I think it's cool, we would highlight what we call voice of customer data. So the words and phrases that those buyers are using to describe their pain points, to describe their desires, et cetera. And then what you can then do is weave that into your copy and content. And if we come back to your initial question, which was about, you know, benefits, how do we know what benefits they're actually looking for? We know, because we've done the research, right? And we've, we've, we've extracted those insights because then if you are writing, you know, a landing page, for example, where the idea is to convert then and there, and you are listing out benefits, the one that is, that should go at the top is the one that's, you know, they've expressed is the most important benefit to them. How do you describe that benefit with the actual language that they've used in that interview or, or that survey. You're much more likely to increase conversion rates if you are, you know, literally describing things in the way that your buyers describe it. But at the same time, obviously you need to balance that with your own brand voice, and that's where the brand lens comes in.
Josh (00:16:29) - Conrad, today, who do you work with at Creative Copywriter?
Konrad (00:16:35) - Um, like,
Josh (00:16:36) - Let me ask you a different way too, of, of all those who are listening, who should be reaching out and, and how could you potentially work together?
Konrad (00:16:46) - Yeah, great question. I mean, look, we are sector agnostic, right? Our, our niche is, is words. Mm-hmm. . That's what we're very, very good at. We've got our frameworks, research, you know, strategy and words. Um, we do work with, you know, some, as I mentioned, some big global brand. If you are gonna twist my arm and say, who, who could we help most? Um, we are doing a ton of work with tech and sass, you know, B2B tech and sass startups and scale-ups, because usually they need us the most, right? They're born from the brains of techy people who aren't ne got great products, great technology, not usually the best at distilling that technology down into a few words that resonates with someone in a few seconds. That's what you need to do. And also, content marketing is usually necessary because you need the education piece and the brand awareness and nurturing piece in order to funnel people towards your offering. So, um, b2b, uh, tech and SaaS startups and scale-ups come and speak to me. You know, we can really, really help you grow predictable revenue by getting your words right at, at every step of the customer journey.
Josh (00:17:54) - Yeah. And, and, um, on your website, I, I have to point out your blog is really good. Uh, let me make sure that I've shared this website to our friend that's listening to our podcast right now. Really simple. Click around, find words as show notes or description, click on that little button. Um, and then we've got a direct link to creative copywriter.net. Uh, go, go to the blog. Um, there's just, you have some really great long form content here. Um, if you really want to dive into this, Conrad, you've put together some, just some really, really great content. Uh, and, and thank, welcome. Aside from the blog, what else would you encourage people to do next in, in the, uh, you know, now that they've heard our conversation?
Konrad (00:18:37) - Well, I appreciate that, first of all, um, you know, it's a testament to our skills. We practice what we preach. So I'm glad you, you like the blog. Um, I mean, following me or connecting with me on LinkedIn, I'm quite vocal on LinkedIn. I give a lot of value copywriting, content, strategy tips, share my agency story as well. So KonradSanders, um, you can find me on LinkedIn, you know, and if you wanna learn more about those lenses, I can just send you a link to a free ebook that we offer, which dives into the, uh, the whole methodology and every, every lens and, and, and how you can get those ingredients balanced.
Josh (00:19:15) - Yeah, yeah, by all means. And, and is that a link that, we'll, you'll give to me and we'll put that, you can only find it in the show description, so you're gonna have to figure out that show notes button in your podcast player. Uh, to, to our good friend that's listening, uh, KonradSanders, again, founder, c e o of Creative Copywriter, uh, the creative copywriter. Again, your website, creative-copywriter.net. Uh, we've got a link, uh, to the free ebook as well. Um, I would also recommend, uh, to our, to our friend listening, follow Konradon LinkedIn, follow Konradon Twitter. Your, your LinkedIn and Twitter game is really good. Your, your posts are just exceptionally high quality stops. So, uh, Conrad, it's been a joy having you again, your website, one last time, creative-copywriter.net. KonradSanders, founder, ceo, thank you so much for joining us.
Konrad (00:20:05) - Thanks, Josh. It's been lots of fun.
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