THE THOUGHTFUL ENTREPRENEUR PODCAST
Sean's journey to owning a research firm was an interesting one. Initially aspiring to be a college professor, he found his calling in solving complex business problems, a passion that led him to establish Cascade Insights.
Sean emphasized the importance of wearing the “super suit,” a metaphor for utilizing AI tools that make sense for a business. He firmly believes that ignoring AI tools is a mistake, as they can significantly enhance a company's marketing and sales efforts.
Sean also introduced the concept of the “age of narrow,” a trend where clients seek specific solutions to their problems, influenced by their experiences with personalized consumer trends.
He advised businesses to focus on narrower segments and target specific customer needs, especially during challenging times. He warned against the temptation to go broad when faced with difficulties.
Sean reiterated the importance of staying focused and narrow in business. He emphasized the need to find the next customer more efficiently and improve messaging. He shared an example of a project they did on ideal customer profiling, determining who businesses should spend their time on.
Seann believes that staying focused on a niche market is a courageous decision that leads to success. He mentioned how many people have suggested exploring other opportunities, but he has always chosen to maximize the current niche before moving on.
He explained that being narrow is defensible competitively because people want someone who understands them. Businesses can build trust with their customers by specializing in a specific area. He also mentioned that saying no to certain markets or clients creates a sense of confidence and credibility.
Key Points from the Episode:
- Cascade Insights' work with big tech companies and their approach to helping clients improve their business
- Importance of wearing the “super suit” (utilizing AI tools) in B2B sales and marketing
- Trend of clients seeking specific solutions and the importance of targeting specific customer needs
- Challenges and benefits of working remotely and managing remote teams
- Value of market research and the roadblocks faced by internal teams
- Challenges of demand generation and the benefits of focusing on a narrow target market
- Importance of staying focused and narrow in business for improved messaging and customer success
- Impact of staying narrow on recurring sales, referrals, and customer trust
- Defensibility and credibility of specializing in a specific area and saying no to certain markets or clients
About Sean Campbell:
Sean Campbell is a lifelong educator, mentor, and trainer with a notable reputation. Renowned for his speaking prowess, he has captivated audiences at top-tier conferences and Fortune 50 companies. His expertise extends to technical and business subjects, as evidenced by his authored books.
As a pioneer in the virtual realm, Sean established and managed a virtual professional services firm for over two decades, well before the trend gained momentum. His extensive experience encompasses consulting for Fortune 50 giants and successful startups. Notably, he sold his first services company and orchestrated the growth of operational practices within professional services firms.
About Cascade Insights:
Cascade Insights is a leading provider of tailored market research and marketing solutions for B2B technology firms. With a track record spanning over a decade, the company has catered to a diverse clientele, including Fortune 500 giants such as Microsoft, Adobe, IBM, Dell Technologies, AWS, and Google, along with mid-sized enterprises and startups.
Cascade Insights equips businesses with the necessary tools and support to navigate market shifts and capitalize on growth opportunities in a dynamic industry landscape.
Whether it's assessing brand alignment with buyer preferences, understanding the reasons behind product competition losses, or refining messaging for increased deal wins and lead generation, Cascade Insights offers comprehensive solutions to these challenges. Their expertise empowers B2B technology companies to stay competitive and strategically advance in an evolving market.
14:54 – “I think you have to allow your employees to show their ignorance in a safe manner.”
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Josh (00:00:05) - Hey there, thoughtful listener. Would you like consistent and predictable sales activity with no spam and no ads? I'll teach you step by step how to do this, particularly if you're an agency owner, consultant, coach or B2B service provider. What I teach has worked for me for more than 15 years and has helped me create more than $10 million in revenue. Just head to up my influence and watch my free class on how to create endless high ticket sales appointments. You can even chat with me live and I'll see and reply to your messages. Also, don't forget the thoughtful entrepreneur is always looking for guests. Go to up my influence and click on podcast. We'd love to have you. With us right now. It's Sean Campbell. Sean, you are the CEO and founder of Cascade Insights. You're found on the Web at Cascade insights.com. I'm excited to have you, Sean. I'm a B2B nerd and so are you, It looks.
Sean (00:01:14) - That's true. And a little bit of a space nerd, I guess, by the background for anybody who's seeing the video.
Sean (00:01:19) - So I have like a ton of disk plates behind me for anybody just doing the audio. And that's my son turned me on to Those are these don't worry, I don't get a commission. They're these really cool like metal poster things. Yeah. And yeah. Anyway, so I've always been an astronomy geek, too, so. But Sister Mary Gale told me my math grades weren't good enough to be an astronomer, so instead I ended up being a business owner. There you go.
Josh (00:01:41) - So do you include Pluto back there? That's the question.
Sean (00:01:44) - You know, here's a really funny thing. So I do. Pluto's lower down below the frame, but I only bought the first eight planets and then my wife decided to put this on my wall. Okay. And so so this now sits under my monitor that like, don't forget Pluto, because I don't think Pluto is a planet, just to be clear. But. I was trying to go with the current state of things, so I bought eight and then I bought Pluto in a couple of moons.
Sean (00:02:12) - So that's below me, like below the frame there.
Josh (00:02:15) - Just to our audio listener, just so I can describe what what Sean just showed me has these beautiful photos of all of the planets there. And he just showed me a little sticky note and written on it was a circle that said it said the word Pluto in it. You know, I want to I this is fascinating. There is a website since we're talking about it, you probably just need to Google this because the website is it's it's at Josh Wirth. Com but I'm sure you've seen something similar to this it's if the moon were only one pixel a tediously accurate scale model of the solar system and you know to our friends that are listening right now if you especially got young kids and you want to emphasize to them just how much space there is between these teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny little planets, it's all space. There is so much space in between these little pebbles that are floating around the sun. It's a really and.
Sean (00:03:22) - This is and this is pretty sweet.
Sean (00:03:23) - I just pulled it up while we were talking because you can do that when you do this. But yeah, it's got great language in between the planets. We'll be coming up on a new planet soon. Sit tight. There is a lot of space in space and it's like. And it's just. Yeah, I won't steal much of it. So people go look at it, but it's. It's really, really good because I agree with you. I mean what I mean, a slight segue into business like I think the. The most important thing you can have as a sense of perspective, right? You know, and like I it's one of the reasons I've always been in astronomy because, I mean, you can go look up at the sky and this isn't the astronomy podcast, so I'll get off this in five seconds. But like you. You're staring into infinity. If you really think about it for half a second. I mean, yes, there's objects between you and infinity, but for all intents and purposes, and for the real geeks out there, I know there's an edge to the universe and we can have that discussion or whatever.
Sean (00:04:16) - But, like, I mean, for all human measures, you're basically staring into a version of infinity. And it's literally above our heads all day long. I don't know how else that can't give you perspective if you bother to look up. So anyway, I digress.
Josh (00:04:30) - Okay. Cascade Insights. By the way, I loved our conversation. I would love to talk more about it that other time. It's share a bit about who Cascade Insights is, what the impact that you have and the work that you do. You've worked with the biggest, You worked with Adobe, Citrix, Cloudflare, Dell RedHat, Salesforce, SAP, Microsoft, a huge list. You know, big, big, big enterprise level tech, a lot of tech companies. But where does what does Cascade Insights do?
Sean (00:05:03) - Well, I'll kind of give it to you in terms of like formal and informal mottos, but only because I think they're kind of cute and they seem to resonate with clients sometimes is like we sometimes say we deliver bad news to good people, or if we're trying to be more positive, we make the truth visible.
Sean (00:05:19) - And basically clients come to us because they don't understand something that's happening in their market and they want to get an outside perspective. I mean, ultimately any company can get insular and not really understand what's happening outside them, but it's all the more so for larger companies where you can just go from meeting to meeting to meeting, just talking to people who work inside the building. And so the other kind of lens to look at it is that we sometimes say we eliminate pain and we help maximize opportunity and we get mostly hired for pain. Organizations are facing competitive threat. They launched a poor product. They have a bad sales process, they have a poor marketing effort, and they want to really understand concretely how to fix that. And so we'll go off and we'll interview customers prospects. Competitor customers will go run quantitative survey instruments. But ultimately, what we're trying to do is give them some kind of recommendation that they can actually use to be better in three months, six months or a year. And that's honestly where it comes from.
Sean (00:06:19) - And the interesting thing for me in owning a research firm is that I wanted to be a college professor. That's what I wanted to be until I met a girl. And by the way, she was happy with me being a college professor. There's a whole story there that why didn't become one. But and I still love teaching and things like that, but in this weird way, I ended up owning a research firm, which is also part of what would have been a professor. I just own it in a professional context, and I really I really enjoy getting to understand kind of meaty business problems and so does the team here and basically just trying to figure out what's going on and then how we can help these clients do better. And that's basically who we are.
Josh (00:06:56) - Yeah. So I'd love to get your perspective on any major trends that you've been seeing over the past ten years and thinking about a higher level B2B sales account based sales, consultative sales, you know, enterprise or not, you know, it could be maybe impacting consultants as well.
Josh (00:07:15) - You know, maybe it could be an independent consultant or a small consultancy. What are some observations that maybe you've seen in terms of trends over the past year or two?
Sean (00:07:25) - Well, I would be totally remiss if I didn't say what I think is the most important thing to pay attention to now, which is that you have to wear the super suit. There are so many people right now who are like, I hate I is bogus, I hallucinates, I is awesome, I is everything and like and here's the deal. This is simply a matter of we're inventing like the equivalent of the wheel, a hammer, wood and fire. Like, I mean you're just I don't usually use these terms this directly, but you're really just an idiot if you don't wear the super suit because and the super suit is just figuring out which of these AI tools make sense for your business, your lane, your industry, your marketing effort, your sales effort, and the fact that they're not necessarily perfect. We've been using computing solutions for years that I've said all software is broken.
Sean (00:08:16) - We just don't know where. I mean, like I mean, that's been true since we used the first computer, right? There's always been challenges in using technology, so that's not really an excuse. If I was to go to something a little more perennial, um, I would say one of the challenges I've seen is that there's an ever increasing desire for people to buy narrow solutions. And I think it's driven by, honestly, consumer trends, right? I mean, you can go hang out in Netflix and just watch British historical period dramas for the rest of your life and never be exposed to any other media stream ever. Or you could watch Russian sci fi or you could watch whatever you want. We're very used now to being able to consume and interact with kind of exactly what we want. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. That's that's for a different podcast, whether it's a good or bad thing for society, I generally think it's mostly a good thing. But what it's done I think is it's created what I sometimes have referred to is a little bit of this like age of narrow where like clients want to find a very distinct solution to their problem and they actually believe they will achieve that period of discovery and analysis because in their personal lives they do it all the time.
Sean (00:09:27) - And so where I go with that is that I think a lot of companies will have a tendency to just go very broad the minute things get hard, like the environment we're facing right now. I mean, right now is not a time to just turn around and like throw your opportunities in any direction and take any type of customer. My argument has always been when things are hard, you get narrower, you pick narrower slices, more targeted segments. And I just think that's a trend that I always want to bring up because the temptation for most business owners when things get stressful is to go broad. I was on a conversation with a client the other day. It was the same thing. All of a sudden they're just, Well, I could go after this customer and that customer in that segment and that market and that thing, and I'm like, Stop, stop! And they're like, But what happens if and I'm like, Spreading yourself out isn't going to solve that problem. You know, you have to create a lot of value in a narrow space when times are hard.
Sean (00:10:22) - And, um, and I've had times where I've violated that early in my business career and I paid the price for it. Yeah. And so that, that what I'd say is a is a perennial trend. I mean, um, I'll stop there. I mean there's other trends and things I could get into, but those are the ones that I always feel. I mean, I've got a lot of thoughts on the whole thing, and that's kind of a big trend too, but that's a different subject to.
Josh (00:10:43) - Our.
Sean (00:10:45) - Return to office, basically. That's kind of the way you go. Yeah. In tech.
Josh (00:10:49) - Yeah. No, no, no, no. Go ahead. Take your soapbox moment.
Sean (00:10:52) - I mean, I think the challenge with the stuff, right, and I listen to another business podcast that I, I won't say because, you know, who knows why you guys maybe you got more listeners than emails, but I was listening to this other one and like, you know, he was just railing against like, you got to be in the office to be creative.
Sean (00:11:10) - You got to do this, you got to do that. And I'm like, It drives me crazy. Maybe as a market researcher, when people are like, generalizing from their own specific right? It's like, okay, well, I can't be creative in the office and my narrow team can't be creative unless we're in the office. So we must be in the office. And I had this argument with somebody today. I was like, I think we were creative before conference tables, whiteboards and chairs. I mean, I think we were creative long before that. I mean, Churchill and Roosevelt prosecuted a global conflict, and they met only 11 times in six years. They wrote letters. They didn't even have Zoom. So like, I mean, you know, you can build and run a creative coalition virtually. And so I think I think we're almost going back to strongly the other way. There's. The other thing about R2 that I felt is that we've kind of skipped over one really critical piece of the conversation when it's like, Well, we should go back to the office.
Sean (00:12:05) - Some people feel a lot of the discussion is around my employees weren't productive. You know what I never hear The manager sucked at managing people virtually because I can tell you it's a different job, it's a different skill. It's not the same. You have to go through a very different way of interacting with your employees. You even have to skill them differently. Um, and I could get in a little bit of that, but I mean, like, it's not the same. You don't have the same smoke signals in the office. You don't have this. So. So where are we talking about how to train managers to manage people virtually well? I've done it for 20 years, so to me I know it's different. And I've also had an office, if somebody's listening, going. But he's never had an office. No, that's not true either. So I've seen both sides of it and, well, I could wax poetically about all the benefits I think of work from home. I think there's a gap that we never addressed about managers capabilities and and even on the employee side.
Sean (00:13:04) - And then I'll stop after this because you said I could have a little runway, but like, um, I'll tell you, the biggest thing I've noticed with employees. Well, I'll say two things, I guess two things that I've noticed with employees when they go virtual that you need to make sure you emphasize as a boss one, you have to make them better writers. Because I had a client say to me the other day, well, I should say at the start of Covid, he was like and he was a nice guy, so nobody should take this the wrong way. I think he said I had no idea how dumb my fellow employees were until they had to write me everything they ever wanted. And so the point was they just didn't know how to communicate in that form then no ability to understand how to communicate in a written form when they were so used to strolling up to somebody in the office and and having that conversation. But if you can build a team of better writers in almost any role, not just marketing, you're going to have better sales conversations, you're going to have better engagement with the market, all those things.
Sean (00:13:59) - And then, um, so that's, that's one piece of it. And the other piece that might that I find rings a little weird to people, but I keep saying it partly because I think it does is I think you have to allow your employees to show their ignorance. And there's a big difference between the word ignorant and ignorance. You know, I'm not saying allow somebody to be ignorant, but I'm saying allow somebody to show they don't understand something in a safe manner. Because in a virtual company, I think where a lot of that productivity gets lost and I'll kind of wrap on this on this, is that if you were to say, well, gosh, why did that project not get finished? They were virtual stuff didn't happen. I would say that the bulk of the time. If you really ask your employees, they'll say, Well, I got off the phone with so-and-so and I wasn't sure what to do and I didn't know if I could call and I didn't know if I could offer up, you know, that I wasn't sure about something and I wasn't clear.
Sean (00:14:54) - And in an office environment, a lot of those things are much safer to do. But you can create a culture where it's okay to do that. It's okay to say, Hey, I just got off this call and I don't have an idea what to do. And I, I, I know it's a big deal because when we bring people on, we almost have to coach him on that, that it's really okay. Nobody's going to keep track of the number of times you didn't know something. And and it's just I think it's really hard it's hard to build a culture that that satisfies that. But anyway, that's that's a few different things, a few different trends.
Josh (00:15:25) - Yeah. So, you know, when we're thinking about market so Cascades primary work is around market research services. And so I mean this is going to touch everything. What are you able to discover that internal teams it's they're having some sort of a roadblock there or they're just some sort of they're just not able to what are they not able to see that you can discover for them?
Sean (00:15:50) - Well, I mean, in the general, I think biggest thing is that they just end up talking to themselves.
Sean (00:15:58) - Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. My puppy has decided to go crazy. Leo, come on. He's hanging out Over on the other side of the frame is. So I think they just don't really have ultimately a good perspective of what buyers and customers want. Um, because you end up with people are just communicating internally the whole time and not really having a good sense of what the market's doing. And I think it's just human nature. We're a little tribal. And so that ends up happening. I mean, the number of times it's really just we had a conversation with an external prospect and they're like, I had no idea they thought that way. I had no idea that they hated our messaging. I had no idea that they thought that way about our product. It really just is kind of the difference between being insular and not, and that just crossing that divide makes all the difference in a lot of cases.
Josh (00:16:51) - I have talked with a number of VP of Sales who have expressed frustration that kind of legion or Demand gen has been has been a little challenging over well, I mean, gradually over the past few years.
Josh (00:17:07) - But I think it's really causing some stress with some teams. And it's just it just costs way more for for for that company to produce the same number of sales conversations. What do you see working well? Or more importantly, where would you kind of shift the focus and attention if demand generally gen is going to be something that a sales team is is is pretty concerned about in the years ahead?
Sean (00:17:38) - I would go back to going narrow. I think that's really ultimately the thing. I mean, I think so many times. The emphasis is on so much growth that it's all about expanding out massively. And I think that's really where the hangup is. Nine times out of ten, I mean, really, it sounds simplistic, but it's hard. It's hard for somebody to really be able to do that in a meaningful way and really stay narrow. And I think that's. That's the biggest piece of advice I would get. I mean, like like instead of targeting nine personas, target two personas for sales efforts instead of targeting nine verticals, target two instead of hitting 22 geographies hit ten.
Sean (00:18:17) - I mean, um, and same thing with feature development. You know, I mean, I think really that's the fundamental thing that I see all the time. I mean, we see all kinds of other tactical errors that people make and things like that. But if you ask me the major one, I see it's an inability to stay focused on a target market for long enough to actually, like, generate the value out of it. You should have.
Josh (00:18:42) - And what is the kind of the inherent value. And I know he talked about this a little bit previously, but I just want to and maybe we could just kind of recap this in a very short answer, but what is the inherent value to being hyper focused?
Sean (00:18:56) - Well, ultimately, that's that's a really good question because I had a client who was a CMO of a major mid-market fill out our form on our website, and she filled out what I thought was one of the best form fills I've ever seen in 20 years. It basically said, we currently serve 2836 distinct use cases and everything is hard.
Sean (00:19:21) - And then she started to iterate a little bit. What's hard? She started to say that, um, one of the things that was hard was customer retention, because we had all these different types of customers that were basically in play and um, and we had to figure out strategies and solutions to kind of like retain all those customers. On top of that, when it came to product development, they had a wide swath of different customers that they had to solve. So they were constantly building solutions for everybody's, you know, Tom, Dick and Harry to kind of make sure that they would all stick around. The sales team would regularly show up in meetings and basically say, um, my customer segments. The most important one, this vertical is the one that we can get the most revenue from. Marketing was a mess because they were trying to message to like a ton of different geographies and a ton of different geos and a ton of different industries and practice areas. And so ultimately. Everything got smeared out into generic.
Sean (00:20:22) - And they were asking themselves how to how do I make this better? How do I find the next customer more easily? Well, keep serving more customers in the same market and that makes referrals easier. How do I find really exceptional messaging? We don't make it so dumb down that it applies to everybody that lives on every planetoid in the solar system, right? I mean, you find a way to be like very, very focused. And I thought she did a really good job of articulating at a CMO level what it means to be narrow. And we came in and we did a project that is basically an ideal customer profile type of project. So who ultimately should you be spending your time on? And at one point in this conversation, in the early days of it, they had 17 or 18 senior executives that got on. This was when they were trying to decide which vendor to pick us or somebody else, and they got on and that one of the persons kind of said the way people do in these things like, so why should we pick you? You know, and after this, after a bunch of conversation and I said, I want you all stop arguing.
Sean (00:21:21) - That's my job. I want you to stop arguing in the end. And I want you to settle in on something that you can actually get maximum value from. And and so that's that's what I would say is it impacts everything. It impacts recurring recurring sales and impacts referrals and impact messaging and impacts like your customer success team. Because if you're not serving 25 different markets, it's probably easier to like actually develop a solution that will be just loved instead of kind of just broadly somewhat accepted by 20 different customer segments, you know? So all of that comes down to the owner having the courage and the leadership team to say, I'm going to stay narrow, I'm going to continue to develop this niche. And once I've really maximized it, only then will I hop over to the next island in the archipelago. And ultimately, what does this come down to? It's courage. It's all it is. Because because there's going to be a million people that will tell you somewhat self. Interestingly, we should go do this other thing.
Sean (00:22:27) - Right. And you as a CEO have to say no, I mean, even as a sole owner, right. I don't know how many times somebody in this company over 20 years. Right. Well, 16 years with this company and six, seven years with my first company before I sold it said to me some version of I think there would be more opportunity if we went over there. And I had to say, no, we're going to figure out here. And if somebody is thinking, well, what about lost opportunity and other planets and islands to go conquer, I'm like, Yes, yes, but only when you truly have actually like conquered the one you're on.
Josh (00:23:04) - I agree with.
Sean (00:23:05) - Businesses. There's so much there, they just don't go after it. And here's the last thing that's really important about it. It's incredibly defensible competitively because to go back to the first thing right, I said about the age of zero, people ultimately want someone who understands them, right? That's what they want it, whether it's the product that understands them or service and understands it's at the heart of what they're trying to buy.
Sean (00:23:30) - And so if you can be like, look, this is something I really understand and I don't understand this, that's key. And one last thing is I could talk for a while about this last point, but I want to make sure I say it. Is that you saying no to the market about what you don't do? Create something that is really hard to create these days in content Trust me. And truth is, most people don't trust content. We just leave it at that. I mean, I'm not trying to make a political statement. I'm just like, if you took a poll, probably people trust content less than they did before. So and it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum they're on. But one of the things that cuts through that like like a knife, is I don't do this thing as a firm. I don't take this kind of client. I don't serve that kind of market. And the minute people hear that, I think what calms them is they're going from, I have to discover what you don't do well, too.
Sean (00:24:25) - You just told me. And that is a really killer thing. And then it lets you stand on a much firmer foundation about, yes, you can trust me that this is something I know. So it is a two step. One part of it is this is what I've decided to focus on. And the second part is having the courage to tell the market what you're not doing today and who you're not serving. And I'd sum it up is this I probably have one more deals over my life by the moment in the call where I said, Yeah, but we don't do those three things and they go, Oh, we'll talk to me more about the three things you do because I probably trust you more now. Yeah, right. And we could we could argue why that is psychologically, but I think it just is.
Josh (00:25:04) - Nope. So that's that's one thing I learned. I said, listen, you know, I am an ultimate nerd when it comes to this one very specific thing. I may be one of the best on the planet if you really narrow it down to like what exactly I do and the other stuff.
Josh (00:25:18) - You don't want to hire me for that because I'm not the guy. I'm not going to be much help for you, but I know good people for that, you know. Sean Speaking of which, your website Cascade insights.com. Where do folks go from here?
Sean (00:25:31) - They can just go to Cascade insights.com or you can just email me at Sean at Cascade Insights. Com And we're obviously happy to talk to somebody that's a B2B technology company which is the market we serve and we don't serve other ones. So there you go. And at the same time, if you're just an entrepreneur and you're curious about Journey and how to kind of evolve, I'm always happy to talk on that front, too.
Josh (00:25:53) - Sean Campbell, founder, CEO of Cascade Insights. Your website Cascade insights.com. It's been a great conversation. We are. Boy, are we up against a hard stop right now like we're recording this. But Sean, it's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.
Sean (00:26:09) - Thanks, man.
Josh (00:26:16) - Thanks for listening to the Thoughtful Entrepreneur Show.
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